Aug 16, 2023
Carol: Welcome everyone to EcoPsychology Cafe. Hello, my name is Carol Koziol, and I'm the founder of the Canadian EcoPsychology Network, the host of this series. Today, Monica's gonna be in conversation about a really interesting topic with Natalie about asking permission in nature. Monica and Natalie, thank you for so much for sharing your time with us. And Monica, I'll turn it over to you.
Monica: So, uh, Natt Forest is here with us today from the Columbia Valley, and she has a, uh, her master's thesis from, I believe Akamai University was on the importance of being mindful in nature.
And she believes that if we are going to help Earth and ourselves, we need to acknowledge the autonomy and sentience of nature as a whole and as individual beings. And she helps people have direct experiences of belonging, oneness, and peace with nature through their senses. And she has also been she's developed and taught eco based yoga for over years, and she created a textbook based on EcoYogaTherapy™.
So yeah, I'm super happy you're here. That, and I'm super happy that there's enthusiasm for this topic, that we had quite a lot of people express interest in it and sign up and, and even ask some questions in advance.
So I wanted to just start by asking you, given that the notion of permission is not part of our modern culture or Eurocentric culture, I wanted to ask how you came to it, how you came to this notion of asking permission in nature and how that's become important to you.
Natt: Thank you Monica, before I do that, or answer that question, I wanted to thank Carol and Monica and the Canadian EcoPsychology Network.
This whole process has just been really beautiful and I wanted to acknowledge that there are threads of permission that have gone through up to this point to even get this, cafe running. So I just wanted to acknowledge that, highlight that, and, uh, say that I value that, obviously given the topic today.
and I also wanted to thank the people that are also interested in it. I would say that this is something that I've just started presenting in the last few years, so it's still a little vulnerable for me, still a little, like, are other people interested?
So the fact that we had, what was it, 80-odd people register? is really heartening to me.
It shows that there is, there's an undercurrent, a wave of people who are really starting to expand, how we interact with nature.
And I also want to acknowledge the land that I'm on, which is this beautiful Columbia Valley, which is the K’tunaxa and Secwempec Nations, nestled in the Purcells and the Rocky Mountains. And, I struggle with land acknowledgements becauseI feel these words aren't enough.
And what this land acknowledgement is really asking of us is that we understand that by acknowledging land, we acknowledge these peoples because those things are not separate. And that is a really hard thing for those of us that have been raised in the current world, dominant view of colonialization to really grasp.
And so, I just wanna acknowledge in my land acknowledgement that I know that it's not enough, and I'm still finding the words to try to express something that I don't really understand truly.
And just sort of am starting to open the crack into understanding. And, uh, segueing not so gracefully into your question, Monica.
Thank you. I would say that there wasn't just one way that I came to permission and, and it's not a concept for me. It's a different mental paradigm. So it's not this abstract, it's not a thought, it's not, a belief system based in thought.
It is a paradigm of understanding that there isn't this hierarchy that our current dominant world or current worldview puts on nature, like humans at the top, um, nature, whether as a collective or as individuals underneath. AndI think that there's been part of me, at least for as long as I can remember, that always felt equal with nature.
Like I wasn't above, I was an, it was an interaction, it's a relationship,it's an acknowledgement of the other, whether that other has two legs, no legs, wings, you know, leave this trail of slime behind them when they crawl along.
So I think that that was a thing that I sort of held close to myself and sort of not in, not in a shame way, but like in a protective way of like,here's something really sincere and authentic, but I didn't necessarily wanna share with others, especially in my little, little village that I grew up in. It's a very redneck, so kinda kept that close to home.
And then sort of in my early twenties, I happened to come across Dr.Cohen's work, uh, Dr. Mike Cohen and Applied EcoPsychology.
And so what that work did for me is give me a language and a way to structure something that I had already been feeling but didn't have,didn't have the words for it, and I and couldn't necessarily communicate that with other people because it was so raw in me. And so in Applied EcoPsychology, the work that I did with, with Dr. Cohen and, and, the facilitators and our other participants, it was slowly something that it became that sort of went from unconscious into conscious and I could start, sort of, start to become more intentional and active with it.
and also there are threads of, I'd have to say my mom in there, she was always really sensitive to make sure that, uh, she was always asking us permission when we were doing things. And I think that that sort of got woven into, and I, use that with nature. And so I think I learned that partly from my mom, partly just intuitive from spending a lot of time with nature, um, and then finding the words and language, uh, from working with Dr. Cohen.
Monica: Mm-hmm. I, I sort of had this thought, you know, even as we started talking today about, you know, in environmental justice circles and how the, in, in those circles, they talk about consent culture, you know, and I have a, a good friend who's a, a movement facilitator and how much consent is part of her, the way she moves through life. Right.
And so something similar here that we're talking about with the natural world for sure. Mm-hmm. Um, how, given that this is not a cultural norm, you know, where we're living, um, how do you begin to talk about this with people or introduce this idea to people?
Natt: I do it gently and with as much permission as possible, um, without them necessarily understanding that they're even, they're even in the process of something called permission. Um, and so I teach yoga as well, have for years. And so in my classes, before I offer advice, before I engage with people,I always ask permission and leave the space for the answer to be no.
Um, and what I have learned is that just me embodying this, eventually students go “oh, this is something that I never knew I needed. I needed to be asked to be touched or to be asked to be given advice.”
and I think yes, permission is important, absolutely undeniable, but I think what is what is most important is in our culture,I think the hardest thing is to be able to hear the, no, I think we get to the general idea of asking permission, but there is,there's this weird interaction in our culture or in our society, the current dominant worldview of this idea that a no is bad, that it's negative, that it's not okay.
And that somehow it's a personal attack on the person. Um, and so when asking permission,I find the most important place to be is just that little bit of space for the answer to be no. Um, 'cause it isn't just enough to say, Hey, is it okay if I touch you and then just go right in and then do an adjustment on someone that's not cool, that's not permission. If that's space of, is this okay, maybe some context to give them.
Um, and through that, through me doing that with people that eventually, at least in my experience, opens up the door for them to go: “Hey, I noticed that you do this thing and I didn't know that it was something I needed. Can we talk more about that?”
So that's a one way is just sort of living it, um, and interacting and really doing my best to embody it. and then when I interact with someone, say, not in a yoga class, um,in our culture, it's common to say, Hey, how are you doing? And, uh, then we give that sort of, uh, rote response. I'm good, thanks, how are you? Um, but if I were to answer more sincerely, if I had something to share, I'd be like, Hey, do you have a couple moments?
I'd love to share something great that just happened. Or, you know, something is hard.
And just asking for that permission to engage in a different way also starts sparking this change in another person.
I don't know if you've ever done that, but usually the energy of the interaction starts to change. And so after a while when I engage with people in this way, they come to me and they're like, Hey, I noticed that you do this thing.
And so that opens up the doorway too. And so those are like two organic everyday things that I do.
When we're talking about in apply to Applied EcoPsychology specifically,I do it more invitation style. So I will offer a workshop, but I'll do my absolute best to say, Hey, this is permission based.
We're gonna be talking about this.
And I do my absolute best in everything that I present to try to be as integral and clear when I'm presenting things so that people understand what they're engaging with and they can make the decision themselves of whether like this is something that they wanna do.
And so, in essence, when I'm doing my marketing,what I'm presenting is an invitation and a request for permission to engage in this specific manner. So for example, if in this cafe, in this zoom, it's titled permission, but really we start talking about something completely different that would be triggering to someone, we haven't really gotten permission, we've changed the space of what we said we were going to do. And so to me, it's more living these things. And after a while people go, oh, I noticed this thing. Can we talk about it?
MONICA: Right. Yeah. How do you frame the importance of seeking permission when interacting with nature with people? Like is there a point where it becomes important to talk about the whys of it?
Natt: Mm-hmm.
So, um, if I'm doing like the EcoYogaTherapy™ or if I'm doing Applied EcoPsychology work, Absolutely. Um,it's sort of threaded into the work that we do. I mention it in, uh, all the things, um, but really, but depends, like if I'm just doing like a wings over the Rockies workshop like we did together, it's, it's a little more casual format. I've only got two hours.
Um, so I, I do, what I do is I go and get permission from the area first. and I don't always get permission, so it's not like I'm like, Hey, we're doing it here. It's usually the day before I go and interact and, uh, get permission. and sometimes I don't get it and I've been guided to another place, and that's fine. Um, and so there are situations where, where I will get permission from land for the others that I'm bringing with me, but also taking the responsibility of it on myself.
Um, and then when I'm in the space with those people, I gently, lightly talk about how we interact with it in a permission based.
Now, if we're in a workshop that is specific to permission, obviously it's more intuitive that I can just go and talk about it and say, Hey, I, We're really good at the attraction piece. You know, we can say, Hey, there's a pretty flower.
I'm gonna pluck that away from all of its life-affirming things that give it life, but hey, it's pretty, I'm gonna go stick it on my table. Or like, there's this beautiful rock that I like I'm gonna take home. So as humans, uh, in our society, we have the attraction piece, but the piece that we're missing in our culture society is this understanding that that other is ha it has its own sovereignty.
It doesn't necessarily have to come with us if it doesn't want.
And so the permission piece is a, is I present it as a way of balancing the attraction piece. And especially when we're talking in the natural world, like forest therapy, Applied EcoPsychology, we've got the attraction.
We talk about it in almost everything I've ever been in, but we don't talk about, Hey, this is another being's home. Maybe we should ask if it's okay if we go there.
Maybe we should interact and have conversations and see if what we want to do resonates with where we're going to do it. And, uh, I feel like I went a little bit off tangent. Sorry, Monica, do you wanna bring me back down?
MONICA: No, that's okay. I, I think what I'm wanting to move into or ask next, I mean, you, you've introduced that term attraction, and I remember that from the workshop that I did with you at the wings over the Rockies Festival (where I met Natalie in the Columbia Valley), which is a great naturalist birding event that happens every spring.
But I would love for you to maybe just, um,as much as you can in this format, maybe take us through a little bit, what does it actually look like, sound like, feel like, to ask permission when interacting with other than human nature?
NATT: That's a great point. Um, before I do that, um, getting permission with nature and natural beings is different than getting permission with humans! Straight up; This is not how we do it with humans.
Um, one of the reasons I believe that is, is because we have a layer of ability to have abstract thoughts.
We all have some layers of trauma that there's no way that we can necessarily feel. Um,and we don't know where the other person is in terms of their journey and their healing. So when working with other humans, verbal is best, uh, I know that that's not always easy because learning to get permission also means that we have to understand what that feels like in ourselves and in a culture where not only do we not value permission, but we also sort of, um, are repulsive to NOT getting permission.
And so it's hard for our culture to see the no or to be okay with the no.
This is a really, um, foreign for sure, understanding a paradigm, but it also takes people a while to trust those sensations and the feelings. So, broad view of getting permission in nature is, it's very simply just asking.
And you can ask with words if you want, and you can just have the intention and the energy, for lack of a better word, of asking permission with the sincereness, the sincere intent of being okay if it's a no.
Um, and then of course there's a maybe, but if we don't have that willingness to hear the no, then it doesn't, then our intention isn't really true or authentic or sincere.
So when we say we want to go to an area in nature to hang out, to meditate, to whatever it is, we approach the area, find an attraction in the moment. Uh, it could be sun, it could be a beautiful flower, it could be breeze, uh, it could be hair and squawking, whatever is organically for real, not in our minds, but actually for real here in this moment.
Engage with that. Uh, sorry, when I say that, I don't mean to make it like a thing,but en engage with whatever that attraction is in the moment. Um, and ask, I'm here to do a meditation. Is that okay?
And if that attraction remains attractive or builds an attraction, if that sense that in the moment sense gets stronger or remains the same for, uh, Dr. Cohen always says about ten seconds, but I think when you feel a yes, that's the yes.
Um, and again, the first piece that I walk people through is understanding what a yes feels like in their body and what a no feels like in their body. Um, and so when we go into nature is very specifically in this moment, presenting your intent, noticing the attractions that arise, staying with those attractions as you ask, if those attractions stay as strong or, you know, carry through, maintain, then that's a yes.
If the attraction kind of goes me kind of waves, you're in the, you're in the zone of maybe kind of gray zone. Uh, and if it's like the attraction, your attraction goes elsewhere, then that's a no, that's a seek somewhere else that's more attractive. Um, and so that's kind of the big broad overview of it. Does, is that what you mean,
MONICA: Yeah, Yeah. No, that's what I mean. And I, I just wanna, maybe just so that we're good and clear, because I know I took this workshop with you, um, but I wanna be clear for other people, and when we talk about words like attraction, and yes, we're, we're talking about having a felt sense kind of in our bodies, right?
Natt: Absolutely.
MONICA: And even I'm aware of it, even the word felt sense could be kind of vague for people, and there's mm-hmm.
I mean, there's more written on the internet these days about felt sense, but some people, I guess just for the benefit of everybody, talk about that as kind of like an internal aura.
It's like a holistic sense, um, inside your body that contains kind of thoughts, feelings, associations of whatever you're engaging with at that moment. I don't know if that's, you wanna add to that, Natalie?
NATT: Sure, I would, I would actually simplify that a little bit. Mm-hmm. Um, because Senses, so when one has a direct experience and it's keep it super simple, I know it's easy to go off into esoteric and mystic stuff, um,but a direct sense is, or direct experience is, is an experiential sense that is not edited or talked over through the mind. It's not filtered through the mind. Um, sorry, I can't remember that name. Like David Attenborough, who does the talk over or the videos, what's that called again?
MONICA: I don't know. Good question.
Natt: But, you know, narrating, right?
MONICA: Narration.
NATT: That's, thank you.
It was in there somewhere. Yeah. So the, the narration of our mind, and so these direct experiences, they are both extremely ordinary, but also very, you know, can be a doorway into the mystic.
And so when we talk about senses, I'm talking about the realness of touching something like texture. You can, you can, you can touch it, you can feel it, you can get a sense when something is soft or hard or bumpy, um, or crinkly. Um, and then, you know, if something looks like it's gonna be soft and it isn't soft, and your mind goes, what, what just happened? Like, I, I've been tricked.
There's something bizarre about this, right? You know, you go to feel a shirt and it's like, that is not soft. There's something wrong with that. Um, and so when I say sense,
I'm talking about these, these very non-abstract experiences of feeling the temperature, feeling the, um, hardness of something, the softness of something, feeling the, the movement of the breeze on your skin, feeling, uh, thirst, knowing that feeling, having to go pee. Like these very mundane, ordinary things, um, that we experience in our life.
And the more sensitive we get to our senses, uh, whether you think that there's or depending on which school of thought you follow, um,these senses occupy emotional senses, physical senses, mental senses, energetic senses.
Uh, I know some people use the word spiritual there instead of energetic. Um,I prefer energetic. Um, and so we have all of these senses that are essentially, um, a communication or feedback with our environment.
And it is moment to moment, uh, it's dynamic. It can be complex, but oftentimes it really isn't. The complex part comes from our minds.
It really comes from, uh, what our minds lay over, what our senses are actually experiencing. And, um, I'd like to speak to the word association that you used. Association is, uh, one of the things that, at least in the work that I did with Dr. Cohen, is something that we actually try to untangle.
What, what we want to do eventually is be able, not,not to get rid of all of our associations, but to start to understand what associations our society and our culture has put on us in regards to our senses and to nature.
And so, you know, really basic example is like, is a fairytale a red riding hood in the big bad wolf, right?
And how all wolves are bad and they're gonna eat people.
And so that's an association. That's a story that we have.
And so eventually what happens, you know, the more self psychology when we work through, uh, this kind of stuff, the more skill that we have of just being with the sense without our mind and associations and stories.
And so we get to have these direct experiences through our senses, something that is an innate, that is absolutely innate within us.
And so each one of these sensory experiences, these interactions with nature, is a doorway into something that could potentially be really profound.
But for me is, is um, doesn't have to be profound to be, to be valuable.
Um, it's extraordinary and ordinary, both at the same time.
And these are things that we are born with and sort of trained out of, um, with the way our society operates.
MONICA: Mm-hmm.
NATT: Um, and so, sorry, I'm just sort of thinking about it.
If there's anything that I didn't explain well enough there, is there,are there any questions that you have before that?
MONICA: Well, one thing I, um, I just wanted to return to, um, again, I guess thinking of my own background and experience and my experience with you is that, that, um, you talked about like that feeling of having to go to the bathroom per se, and like we all know that feeling and it's fairly obvious to us.
And I guess I'm also thinking that when we're talking about attractions and the yes and the no, that we might encounter that, that can be quite subtle.
Like a little bit like the, like there's, you know, I know you were simplifying it, right? Like that, you know, cutting through some stuff there. Um, but I'm going back to even the grounding.
I did like words like heaviness, lightness, and, and so they're, they're, they're both tangible in the body, but subtle at the same time.
NATT: I don't know if you would kind of agree with that, or, I think it's, uh, I think it's subtle when we still have a lot of like a really chunky mind.
It's not a great word.
That's the word that comes to, comes to mind. and as we sort of clear through the stuff in our mind, those things are not so subtle.
They don't have to be as loud to be felt and heard because our mind is an overlaying stuff. Um, so it, it seems subtle in the current paradigm of our culture that is so information and mind heavy, um, and is sort of stunted us in our sensory capacity.
Um, but when we sort through that, when we, you know, do a, like, actually actually do yoga, not stretching, um, when we sort through that mind stuff, then those things are not subtle anymore. In fact, uh, they become, they become, um, I don't wanna say loud 'cause that is not imbalanced, but they become quite apparent. Uh, it's easy to feel these senses and it's, and it's easy to feel when we get a yes and a no, but based on what our society has set up for us, it, it takes most of us time and skill to sort through some of this, right? It's, even though it's innate, it's kind of like under a blanket of snow and we have to melt away the kind of the, the mind that's on top.
MONICA: Mm-hmm. Do you have an example that you can share with us?
And I know you referenced mm-hmm. Like that this is both ordinary and, and can be something more powerful or potent, if you wanna put it that way.
But I wonder if you have an example you can or feel comfortable sharing with us where, um, there was some feedback or there was some, you know, like the power of of this practice or the importance of it was affirmed for you. Because I, I realize that a lot of times when we seek permission, we just we're getting the yes or the no.
And we're, we're going with an acceptance of that and just kind of moving forward.
And I'm just curious if you have any examples of where there was some feedback about, oh, you know, I, I can see why that was really important, or something that nature.
NATT: Are you wanting one specific with nature or can I give you one with a human?
MONICA: Maybe let's go with one with nature.
NATT: Okay. Okay.
So this is, this is such a part of a way of being for me that, um, finding like one moment is, is always a tough, a tough thing.
Um, so I'll share the one that I shared with you in wings, Monica. Um, so I used to live right on the edge of a forest and there was a bunch of trails in the back, and I would go for my walk run.
Um, when I say run, don't get the idea that I'm an athlete or a triathlon or anything, it's just like a jog. Um, but I loved it. And I would go for an hour and a half, two hours.
Um, and so I would sometimes go quite deep into the forest, well deep of what we've got left here in this area anyway. And, uh, so I was out for a little jog I was running and I kinda came around a new corner of a place I'd never been.
Um, and there were these, like this tall tree stand, but there was just a little trail through. And so I ran through the trail and I got this hard of like this boom of like, no, it, it almost felt like running into a wall, but because I was jogging jogging, I couldn't immediately stop.
And so I think it was about three steps in before it got to my mind.
So I felt it first I felt this like, mm-hmm, nope. Um, and so three steps in and I stopped and the hair on the back of my neck went up and I was like, I am not supposed to be here.
And I'm looking around and, and so I'm asking permission, but it's very clear.
I'm like, I'm not even sure why I'm asking permission at this point. 'cause it was very clear that I trespassed.
Um, and so I'm looking around and probably about ten feet away from me is this big gray timber wolf just absolutely stunning.
And of course my heart's going like, like this at this point, and uh, it's looking at me and I'm looking and I'm like, I'm sorry.
It was total intent, my apologies. Um, and, and wolf was, uh, she was standing, I think, ready to make a move at me if I had gone any further.
And so I just sort of offered apologies, stepped back, got back to the edge of, of those two trees, that entrance area. I was, Phew.
If permission already hadn't been a part of my life in this unconscious moment when I was out jogging, not truly paying attention, um, then I would not have been able to recognize this No.
When I clearly went running head straight into it. Um,and so I think about that often. I was whew, not only was it an awareness, a wake up call to, you know, be more present when I'm out meandering. Um, but it really solidified my practice to that point of, because it was already part of me, my is we're able to communicate that this was not something that was, okay. So
MONICA: That's a great example. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. Um, I'm thinking about moving into the larger, uh, group with questions I think at this point. And so, uh, if there's people we've, we're still gonna continue the recording for the time being. I think, um, if people don't feel comfortable asking their question out loud, you can always pop it in the chat and I will read it out if that works for you.
Um, we'll have some time at, at the end for people who don't wanna be recorded but wanna ask a question live.
So, and I really wanted to make sure that we got to, um, a question that Carol was kind of noodling on or, or had for you that I thought was really relevant and goes back, comes full circle to where we started from today and where we always kind of start from in these gatherings. Carol, did you wanna go ahead with that question?
CAROL: Is that the one that I, Um, like about that land acknowledgements? Like Yeah, I think Chat about that at the beginning, Natalie. And it's just like in my simple mind asking permission includes the more than human world, it also, does it have to include, should it include the, um, or permission?
Natt: Sorry, you cut out there, Carol. I didn't, I didn't get it all. Sorry.
Can, can you say it again for me?
MONICA:Yeah. So I'm not sure what's happening with our sound here. Um, I'm just gonna maybe remind people to have themselves muted until such time they're speaking. 'cause I think sometimes that can kind of create some interference, but, um, yeah, I guess it's, Carol and I were even chatting even before we came on with you, Natalie.
CAROL:We were just wondering about those layers of permission.
Like of course we're talking about that very immediate, uh, when you're out in an area and seeking permission from the other than human presences here, there.
And I don't know if you have thoughts about that layer of the original inhabitants of this land and how that factors into your understanding about just what we're talking about today and what that might look like in your view and realizing that context differ. But anyway, turn that over to you.
NATT: So I love this question and actually, uh, when you presented something similar to me, Carol earlier in email, my partner who is a Anishinaabe (Ojibwe), um, I brought it to him and we had, it was, it was in the morning before his work and before my work. And we both ended up being late for work, like good half hour late for work because this question is just so beautiful.
Um, and so I do not in any way feel that I am equipped to fully answer this question in a way that would in any way reflect what, uh, First Peoples would, how they would answer this. Um, and I'm not saying that they as a collective, but as in individuals and, uh, the threads that are common between, between peoples, um, what I am currently meditating with in regards to this very beautiful question is, is peoples and culture and languages arose from land, from direct experience, connection, relationship with land.
And at least in my view, when we, when we passover, when we transition, um, we go back to land. Um, and so to me, asking permission and staying in the flow of permission, and it's not this concept of ask once and always have it, um, you know, that Facebook meme where he is like, Hey, I bored the car last week, i'm gonna borrow it again now without telling you, it's not that scenario.
By asking permission of whomever, whatever being we are engaging with, we are also asking the energetic of whomever' s spirit that resides there. Also, this idea that humans and land are different, humans in nature are different, is an interesting paradigm that I don't believe, and I'm not entirely sure, but I, I meditate, I, I wonder, I ponder if there isn't that difference that we put in our minds.
And so by asking permission of say, uh, dandelion in this moment, we aren't in some way directly asking permission of the first peoples, peoples that were before us.
Um, but to say that I don't mean, let me put it this way.
When I have been meditating in an area with nature, sometimes something more than that area arrives and there is an interaction that is permission based, assuming that I'm okay with it, assuming that the something more is okay with it.
And so by asking individual pieces of nature, we are also asking at simultaneously because they are not separate from those that were there before us.
That's where my meditation is currently at with it.
It's not a super direct answer, it's kind of in true meditation format.
A little messy.
MONICA: Thanks for sharing your thoughts about that. Yeah. Um, Hannah has a question you wanna unmute?
HANNAH: Yeah. So here in true meditation format, I do not have a fully formed question, but I think a lot. So everything that you've shared resonates deeply.
My background is in education, and then I stepped into social work and I found this experience through an ecotherapy course that I'm taking through Pacifica.
And you know, I think so much about top down and bottom up ways of learning, right?
So I'm fascinated after a decade in education by how do we, how do we learn?
And I so deeply appreciate the bottom up approach, that experiential approach. And yet, and you know, something that I've really been with as of late is this idea of whether, and not in a fatalistic way, just kind of in a matter of fact way, whether we're in like the, I use the word hospice stage with the earth recently, and then somebody offered a reframing of palliative care.
And so, you know, just kind of toying in that space. But I don't know, you know, a lot of what I've read and looked into, and it doesn't feel like hopelessness, but it's just this question of whether, you know, are we, are we past some degree of a point of no return, um, with the loss of biodiversity?
And, and so I so appreciate like I'm the individual level, this bottom up approach. And yet sometimes I think about like, is there a way, and I'm not trying to like force something into a framework that it's not meant to be a part of, but is there a way to speak to permission?
Um, right, like lack of separation and understanding that we are not like, yeah, we're not distinct from nature.
Is there a way that invites people who perhaps aren't ready to have this experiential bottom up approach to use the co Like it's, it's the idea of meeting people where they're at, right?
So as a society, yes. Is it a beautiful idea to believe that with the right amount of access, spaciousness self-worth, that people can have access to this bottom up approach in their experience of conversation with nature? Like of course, but I wonder if there's a place and what it would look like to kind of Yes, in terms of meeting people where they're at, invite them in from a more top down approach that perhaps creates spaciousness for them to then experience it in this bottom up way. I don't know if that's a full enough thought to be answered.
NATT: Um, well, hi Hannah, thanks for coming. Um, I appreciate the question.
I appreciate that you're here. Um, there's a lot in that, um, a few different things sprung up a while. You were, while you were, um, expressing, um, one piece for me is that if someone isn't ready, they aren't ready.
If we truly want a permission-based way of being a way of living, that is something we have to accept. And that's a completely different paradigm. Yeah. Because, but if we're gonna live in this paradigm of permission, that's the acceptance.
But kind of what I was saying earlier is that my experiences, I think that you're talking to the people that are kind of like in the fringe, in the borderland of maybe, you know, if they knew that this was a thing, they would go there, but so the people that aren't ready, they're not ready.
Um, and I mean, we could get into it.
Uh, I think, um, talking about the mind parasite, the, um, and so I don't know that we can necessarily, um, reach those people just yet. Not to say we can't hold space and we can't keep the hope and the space for that to shift.
Um, but these people that are, or that are in kind of the border, the transition and, and they could be ready for permission if they, they knew about it, if they understood it.
And I think that we see that, especially with things like the #MeToo movement and the changes in the way that our workforce is starting to engage, and the fact that we at least acknowledge mental health now, um, and then beautiful work that social workers are doing.
Um, and so I think that we see pieces of this permission starting to come in, maybe not with these words per se, but we start, we're starting to see pieces of it come and we're starting to see at least certain parts of our culture, our society start to shift with that a little bit. A
nd so if we want to affect change without beating our heads against a wall, trying to get those people who aren't gonna hear us anyway, um, then, then we start with the people that are willing to hear us.
And then that sort of expands and expands and expands.
Is, is that good enough to change the trajectory that Earth is on based on what us humans are doing to it? I don't know.
Do I believe that everything living can die if pushed far enough? Yes.
Do I believe earth is living? Yes.
Is it possible to change? Yes.
Is it probable? I hope so.
Um, but I see lots of people like us here more and more.
The more I stick my toe into the water and start having these conversations, the more people I see.
So just recently in my small town of maybe um, the local district was going to pave an area along the wetlands that didn't make sense. And so we got a petition together and we, um, presented it to the district who listened, by the way.
Um, and, and they're not gonna pave it as smart review, but my point is, is that people I didn't even know were like, thank you so much. We were not asked permission about this. We don't understand why this was even a thing.
And so when we went around and started talking to people to say, Hey, is this something you want? Were you asked, is this okay? And people were like, well, no.
And so people that I wouldn't have even known were into permission or into nature were like, thank you so much.
And so to me, the more we start having these conversations, the more threads that we're gonna see that there are little islands of people going, How, how do we move forward?
So without, um, talking too much longer, does that even start to begin to answer something for you, Hannah, or
HANNAH: Certainly and I think yeah, I can so appreciate just, right, we're talking about different lenses and so from a permission based lens, yes, I completely am with everything that you just shared, um, and just understanding that not everyone right is going to choose to operate from that lens.
And, um, but yeah, we model it right and embody it, and that's kind of all we can do.
And whether it changes the outcome or not is not for us to know. Um, so yes, thank you.
NATT: Uh, and, uh, if there's more, I'm gonna pop in a link and then you'll have access to my email. If there's more that you wanna continue on, just shoot me an email and we can keep going. We can add, that'll be a really good option.
MONICA: I know that we're coming close to the hour that we try to try our best to kind of honor the time that we allot for this. But, um, there were a couple of other questions, so let's see if we have time for a little bit more.
I know Jill has been wanting to say something.
JILL: Thanks, Monica. Um, so, uh, Natalie, I always love time, uh, interacting even if it's on Zoom. Um, so I just resonated with so much of what you were saying and, and, um, your, your, uh, story about the timber wolf, uh, really, really touched me deeply and brought up my own experiences of being deep in the natural world and, and hearing a strong no.
And so, uh, so much of what you're saying about, um, this is a skill and a practice, um, I resonate with and because I also am working with people who I like your analogy of chunky mind, so whose, whose minds are chunky and, um, maybe have not developed the skill, but there's something pulling at them.
Um, so, so I'm really, uh, it brings up to, for me, what I observe a lot in myself and others is when, um, we get a trigger or a trauma that makes our minds chunky and therefore don't have the skill of experiencing the, the, um, the awarenesses, I'll just call it that, through all our or cent stores, whatever that is, right?
Um, when it gets in the way of that, um, so from, from the, the person who's working with somebody else who, who maybe is starting to be more receptive, but the, the, the chunkiness comes up through trauma, my sense is, is that it's not good to go straight to a really intense experience that's gonna bring a strong no, like a timber wolf.
So how, so do you, what's your thinking around that?
Do you, do you create, um, a, a a sort of a, a context that would probably be safer, um, that they can let down their guard, less trigger to be more open to develop the skill. Mm-hmm.
So that's what I'm playing with right now, is creating that, creating the ground conditions that, uh, are creating step by step, more openness, less guardedness, more sort of, this is okay to keep going.
NATT: Hmm. Beautiful. Thank you Jill.
MONICA: We are really coming very close to our time and, um, I mean I think this has been really rich and I think it's great that you have the link that you popped in the, the chat, Natt, to um, encourage people to reach out with further comments and questions.
And that'll go out with the recording.
<END RECORDING>